However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. All this scientific garbage really sounds great, but if you need fifteen rounds to eliminate a threat you got real bad aiming habits. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Explore. Cheap crap. If you cant always hunt effectively with it, is it big enough? Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Reddit At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. I read a study from an Army medic regarding one shot kills from a handgun. John I agree, the Browning Black Label in 380 ACP is a superb gun. Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! Experiences on the streets say otherwise. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. It is really scary to think that a jury would put any weight behind what he says knowing that the rest of my life will be determined by the crap spewed forth from him. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Shot placement is the deciding factor. You can not tell me this otherwise because, I know this for a fact. The U.S. military collected reports of its effects on the first Viet Cong combatants to be shot with the bullet. Or 45 cal quickly changes the perspective f the individual. But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? I definitely know how to settle this little petty argument. Wouldnt waste my money on it. 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, Arming Yourself: A Woman's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Protecting Your Family: A Parent's Guide to Self Defense and Concealed Carry (CCW), Arming the Elderly: A Self-Defense Guide for Senior Citizens, Holsters for Self Defense: A Guide to Carrying Concealed, Arming Toddlers and The "Kinder-Guardians" Program: A Shamefully Bad Idea, Self Defense for LGBT: Self-Protection and Concealed Carry (CCW) for the LGBT Community, Arming the Disabled: A Self-Defense and Concealed Carry Guide for People With Disabilities. 45 Damage: 22 per pellet. True, Or not? Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! But ideally you need a brush rifle. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. This study is thus inherently flawed, as it ranks large shallow wounds above deeper ones. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? I carried an issue 45. But, this little word but often comes up in real life. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Now as far as the technology of rounds go, technology has improved for all of the basic calibers including 45 so there is no advantage there for the 9. Thank you Bill ! George. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. Depends. If you throw it at someone, not so much. If its fired from a Thompson Submachine gun, its almost guaranteed to be lethal. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. The comparisons that I have seen conducted under those conditions seem to be pretty equal. Involved in a shooting with my partner. It doesnt get more damaging that that. Not to kill but enough to let us get to our guys or a firearms. For me the thing that has always solved this debate is simple. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. .380 9mm .40 10mm or .45 one well placed shot and dead nothing really better about each round besides power and penetration they all kill in skilled hands and do there job in certain situations there is no better round than the one you train with period! Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Finally, someone mentions what type of ammo is being used. You might be able to talk to the first guy. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. But according to the FBI (First Bunch of Idiots) it isnt possible. The paramedics said he probably would not live. A. H. Hassall, The microscopic anatomy Wellcome L0024127.jpg 1,080 1,787; 799 KB. It seems to me to be better than the 9mm or the 45 acp Of handgun owners alone, 63 percent owned these for the purpose of protecting themselves against other people, with another 20 percent owning them for protection against animals. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. Even long range shots! That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. He was a deputy sheriff. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. What damage can a .45 caliber bullet do to a human? - Quora 9mm. Its probably just psychological, but real evidence that the .45 is more effective. But we generally would refer to them as cartridges or rounds as a bullet is just the projectile portion encased in a cartridge and loaded into the firearm. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. No lab test can tell you how likely a round is to drop an assailant, but they can tell you how destructive a round is upon impact, which is the best metric youre going to get. The 45 deer had busted bones and bullets still within them. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. EVER! Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. I settled on a 9-round single-stack .40 S&W that has almost identical dimensions to the same pistol in 9mm. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. And no I have not tried it with Glock 19 I really dont like Glock it feels weird in my hand and does not perform anywhere close to my Kimber Colt 45 or my Walther Q4. Fired expert m14. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. A more accurate equation is (terminal) Energy, defined as 1/2 the mass times the velocity squared. You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. With civilians Mosher shootings occur within 7 yards thats 21 feet are closer usually closer. Not to suggest that a skilled shooter (and/or soldier or Marine) couldnt shoot it, but almost anybody is going to be faster with a 9mm in their hands. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Sources say Jimmy Lam used a TEC-9 style pistol, illegal to sell in the state for almost two decades. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). Just how common are self-defense uses of firearms? It makes a bigger hole. No matter what caliber you are carrying, just remember that one of the keys to shooting through auto glass (whether from within or outside the vehicle) is to shoot as much as possible through the same hole. In stark contrast, the vast majority of incidents involving .40 S&W and .45 ACP resulted in gunshot victims being DRT; they dropped and expired right where they were initially shot, even with imperfect shot placement. The .45 knocked him on his ***. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. Because recoil obviously cant be observed and you have to shoot someone huh, I heard of a police officer shooting a dog 6 times with a 9 mm before being able to incapacitate the dog. What I have also seen on the range at 25 yards, while shooting steel silhouette time after time, was the 9mm would fail to kick the silhouette out of the track 7 out of 10 times without placing another shot. On a side note, this is the recent trend move away from larger calibers to smaller ones. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Now its true that most of those victims wounds ultimately proved fatal; but its also true that they were far from incapacitated and either did or could have returned fire if they were also armed. You have renewed my faith in man. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Okay 9s are cool, hold a lot of rounds, small recoil, cheap to shoot and buy. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. Psychological factors play a much greater role. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. The issue is the 9mm one penetrated which resulted in through and through shots. The double stack G19 is thicker. A forum community dedicated to all 1911 firearm owners and enthusiasts. That and other factors. His chest was gurgling and slurping. 45 acp damage human body 45 acp damage human body on jun 11, 2022 on jun 11, 2022 The impact of the injury would depend on where the bullet went besides your stomach. 45 guy and .357 mag lover . Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rwYqGmVvzQ, http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165386, http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=91, http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714, http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf. The damage is often extensive, and not just for those who die. Why arent both so much better than .223? In a military that accepts all genders and has lowered its physical fitness standards, Its not surprising that the 9mm was selected. Riley, love your artical. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. I am not sure why Ruger did not enter a weapon into the competition (like the new American pistol), but it could be that they looked at the RFP and made a determination that for some reason their pistols didnt fit the bill, or perhaps they decided it wasnt worth it. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. The ambulance took him away. Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Blood poured out of his chest cavity, she wrote. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. I would make the same recommendation to all American law enforcement agencies who are considering a switch to 9mm handguns. Training, muscle memory, nerves, etc dictate to me, that the harder hitting rounds are far more apt to keep me going home in the morning. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Looking back at the stories we told, and which stuck with us, during an eventful year. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Just one article about that here: http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/. But thats a subject for another article. Just saying. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. This is why you must choose your weapon carefully and train with it diligently. I shot Master for a while. If I remember my undergraduate physics, acceleration is defined as a change in velocity or a change in vector. Therefore, the 9mm is probably the correct choice. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. For another 2+ years. One other thought dont ever modify the trigger on your self-defensive gun if you ever have to use it in those situations and lawyer finds that out he will own everything you have. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter (i.e., recoil) and he too would be knocked down. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. In other words, negative acceleration and a non-linear path are both occurring. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. If you dont have an excellent chance against a large carnivore with it. There are tons of manuals and a ton of information so that you can write an informed post. In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. Ballistic gel is a joke and not a valid substitute for actual flesh and bone. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. 3 rounds all center mass within 2 inches of each other. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. So, the answer is simple, right? For you to dissect their writings may be fun but not productive. Media in category "Human body" The following 64 files are in this category, out of 64 total. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. Just some REAL world observation not keyboard commando stuff. Indeed, in some studies, such as one conducted by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration (LEAA), the temporary cavity is assumed to be the primary handgun wounding factor. According to mamas statement, Papa got crazy and chased her into the bath room. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. Developed in the early 1960s, the .223 round was first used in Vietnam. Of course shot placement is important. and Privacy Policy. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. Such as my Kimber and Walther and can never forget the CZ shadow 2. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Ask the Mafia. One of the techniques used by several mob hit men was to use a .22 caliber pistol placed in the soft spot behind and slightly belo We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. Take this for what its worth. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. Damage: 55. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. Talk to someone that has been shot with a 9mm FMJ round and ask them what it feels like and contrast that to someone that has been shot with a 45 ACP FMJ round. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? Ill take an M4, even with the M855 green-tip ammo that everyone says sucks, over an MP40 or a Thompson or any handgun any day of the week. end of discussion. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. The Krag was a failure for two reasons. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. Shot placement is the only thing that matters a perfect shot placement with a .22 gets the job done where a miss with a 50 cal just causes a little blood. Can A 9mm Bullet Kill You I shot 8 watermelons, 4 for each gun. 24 Round Magazine now only decreases reload time by 5% rather than 20% like before. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. I have used the 1911 govt. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. Due to the heavy load some people with both types of weapons had malfunctions as the slide was moving too fast causing failure to feed. .45 Magazine type M1911 mag.45 ACP: Damage 1389 Blood: Fire modes Semi Shots to kill body: 3 head: 1 Effective range 50/100 m Rate of fire moderate Recoil Moderat Noise Moderate Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. Hogwash!! you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. Richard, I guess I have little feminine hands as I prefer to carry my 9mm for self-defense and on duty. The FBI cant make up its mind and bounces back and forth. When I left LE I traided for a S&W 39-2 9mm. I personally dont find much difference in recoil between a compact 9mm and compact .40 S&W; but I recognize and am sympathetic to other shooters who do. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. Well, depends on whom you ask. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. Well Obama wants his pay raise and his retirement increased. No regrets. I would easily give credit to the Colt 45 on reliability accuracy and range, my 9mm all it really does better is shoot faster because it has a 4 lb. Lexipol. F=MA is F=MA. Give me a 45 any day! After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. The FBI just did the same thing. It has a velocity of 1200-1600 ft/s and energy of 140-160 Joules. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. Shorter barrels or longer range of initial impact will likewise decrease the possibility of expansion. It scares the hell out of me to think I might have had to use a 9 mm. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. I like my Colt GOV. Yes, I know it was a +P round, but then, there arent any grizzly bears in my neck of the woods. Bullet coursing from behind the knee to my heel. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. Your shot placement will be perfect. Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. In fact, the .223 projectile, a common round for the AR-15, is not much larger than many .22 rounds like the Hornet, typically used for youth shooting sports, target shooting, and hunting varmints. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. I enjoyed reading all of this info but didnt once read the real reason the .45 was originally better at stopping than the .36 cal. I can buy that. https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/, http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2015/07/08/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/, https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/, Victim Uses Awareness And a Gun to End Armed Attacker, S8E5: The Battle over Gun Registration & Assault Weapon Ban Rages On, Man Disarmed And Shot With Own Handgun in Parking Lot, Finally a Holster for the SIRT Pocket Pistol, Watch This Before You Shoot Your Pistol!! Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. The quibble is over. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. So In a effort to accommodate all soldiers they switched to a milder recoiling 9mm round. Q-Did the owners of their weapons replace recoil springs on a maintenance schedule? Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either. WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. Pain is generally physiologically irrelevant, but where present often just makes motivated targets angry and thus, more motivated. IMHO, everyone of us is different in all ways from head to toe and mostly including the brain and fitting a handgun is different for all.
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